East Asian businesses often go out drinking. Why is this such an important part of corporate culture, relative to other world regions? A month ago, I didn’t know. Now, after my interviews with people in China and Korea, the answer is very obvious. The Great Gender Divergence is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.
The section on China rings very true (I live in southern China, though I don’t do business, so I don’t know the business drinking world well).
I think there is one underexplored element, though, which is the level of separation between work and private life; or alternatively, the distribution of pleasurable activities across work and private life.
In China, I’m often struck by the disconnect between what many men say about business dinners - that they’re a chore - and the enthusiasm with which they engage in business dinners. At least some portion of men are doing it not because they have to, but because they enjoy it.
At the same time, I find lots of Chinese businessmen quite hard to talk to, because they don’t have much going on in their personal lives. Few hobbies, less time with their children than I do, and little inclination to talk about personal topics beyond the prices of prized possessions (“Look at this new gold watch. It cost $10,000.”). They only want to talk on the topics of their business, shared business acquaintances, and business entertainment. My feeling is that they regard the workplace as the natural locus for pleasure and interest (the fact that pleasure may well include hiring sex workers further cements this); home is more a place for duty.
Very interesting topic that I would've completely agreed maybe 10-15 years ago. Contemporary Korea is such a dynamic society even Koreans struggle to catch up. For example, I emigrated Korea 30 years ago lamenting 'kkondae' meaning older highly authoritative men ruling subordinates with terror. Now every Korean man fears to be identified as one and often cancelled as a result. Companies also aware forceful drinking culture hinders retaining young talents. Not that Korea is now any less stressful society but drinking is significantly more optional to Gen Zs and Millennials.
I can’t speak for all of east Asia, but I’ve lived in Japan, so I can say this:
There is considerable variation between companies and regions.
In Kyoto, all communication is indirect. In Osaka, communication is direct and people rib one another mercilessly regardless of hierarchy of familiarity. In Tokyo, people are polite and reserved. Moreover, polite language registers enable one to speak one’s mind to a far greater degree than one’s hierarchy position might suggest. Also, drinking is completely out of the question if one drives to work, so only public transport commuters can drink at all.
I don't know about Chinese or Japanese drinking habits now, but when I was there 30 and 40 years ago, drinking and eating in a business social situation was welcome because it was free. The company paid for really good food and drink and often entertainment that made up for the low salaries and long hours.
And whatever anyone did was never talked about the next day or ever. People let themselves go. They could do that in a group -- no one would move up who wouldn't play along -- and never on their own because there was no license or freedom to do so individually. And it cost money that way.
I would also mention how regional cultures in the US can vary. There appear to be strong parallels between East Asian culture and predominant cultural norms in the Southeast US (which may help explain why East Asian companies expanded their manufacturing into the Southeast US early on, as I saw growing up in Tennessee).
Alcohol is a hard drug and according to estimates it's more dangerous than heroin, methamphetamine, or nicotine. Of course the estimates by people like Prof David J Nutt are flawed and we need more data, but with the current political climate that heavily promotes the abuse of hard drugs getting the budget to properly compare drugs is almost impossible. Alcohol is not just linked to sexual abuse, it's the most popular date rape drug. I regularly abuse hard drugs like alcohol, but everyone who does so should be considered a drug addict.
Interesting hypothesis about men being seen as more productive because of drinking culture. A similar comparative observation I made is with smoking culture in South Korea. Less and less people smoke, but men still smoke more than women, possibly due to peer pressure in military. However, non smoking men are still seen as productive as their smoking peers; and while sometimes smokers are criticized for wasting work hours, men seem to be exempt from this. Gender itself bends all logic behind performance measurement and meritocracy.
Does a woman who willing joins in the drinking and actually enjoys or initiates sexual interaction with coworkers suffer any negative consequences from being open in that way, I wonder?
God I hated, hated living in a society which couldn't speak its mind. It's full of completely unnecessary interpersonal drama and a shitload of wasted of time and productivity. Living in a low context culture is much more comfortable.
There are sometimes other reasons women need to leave early. Maybe not a coincidence that alcohol consumption being key is also inimical to combining work and pregnancy/breastfeeding/motherhood. And can’t be a drunk caregiver to small children between work hours.
Have considered that the requirement to drink is a deliberate and self perpetuating form of patriarchal exclusion of women..
How does the after work drinking culture impact caregiving and housekeeping? I imagine that responsibilities at home fall more often on women, further keeping them from open communication.
A Kiwi. NZ established its embassy in Beijing in '73. Travel was easy (no blacked out windows), mostly without a 'guide'. I was a teenager and an object of curiosity to many Chinese.
The "what the British say->what the Dutch understand" thing is a bit how I feel as an East Coaster talking to Midwesterners.
The section on China rings very true (I live in southern China, though I don’t do business, so I don’t know the business drinking world well).
I think there is one underexplored element, though, which is the level of separation between work and private life; or alternatively, the distribution of pleasurable activities across work and private life.
In China, I’m often struck by the disconnect between what many men say about business dinners - that they’re a chore - and the enthusiasm with which they engage in business dinners. At least some portion of men are doing it not because they have to, but because they enjoy it.
At the same time, I find lots of Chinese businessmen quite hard to talk to, because they don’t have much going on in their personal lives. Few hobbies, less time with their children than I do, and little inclination to talk about personal topics beyond the prices of prized possessions (“Look at this new gold watch. It cost $10,000.”). They only want to talk on the topics of their business, shared business acquaintances, and business entertainment. My feeling is that they regard the workplace as the natural locus for pleasure and interest (the fact that pleasure may well include hiring sex workers further cements this); home is more a place for duty.
Very interesting topic that I would've completely agreed maybe 10-15 years ago. Contemporary Korea is such a dynamic society even Koreans struggle to catch up. For example, I emigrated Korea 30 years ago lamenting 'kkondae' meaning older highly authoritative men ruling subordinates with terror. Now every Korean man fears to be identified as one and often cancelled as a result. Companies also aware forceful drinking culture hinders retaining young talents. Not that Korea is now any less stressful society but drinking is significantly more optional to Gen Zs and Millennials.
I can’t speak for all of east Asia, but I’ve lived in Japan, so I can say this:
There is considerable variation between companies and regions.
In Kyoto, all communication is indirect. In Osaka, communication is direct and people rib one another mercilessly regardless of hierarchy of familiarity. In Tokyo, people are polite and reserved. Moreover, polite language registers enable one to speak one’s mind to a far greater degree than one’s hierarchy position might suggest. Also, drinking is completely out of the question if one drives to work, so only public transport commuters can drink at all.
I don't know about Chinese or Japanese drinking habits now, but when I was there 30 and 40 years ago, drinking and eating in a business social situation was welcome because it was free. The company paid for really good food and drink and often entertainment that made up for the low salaries and long hours.
And whatever anyone did was never talked about the next day or ever. People let themselves go. They could do that in a group -- no one would move up who wouldn't play along -- and never on their own because there was no license or freedom to do so individually. And it cost money that way.
I would also mention how regional cultures in the US can vary. There appear to be strong parallels between East Asian culture and predominant cultural norms in the Southeast US (which may help explain why East Asian companies expanded their manufacturing into the Southeast US early on, as I saw growing up in Tennessee).
Alcohol is a hard drug and according to estimates it's more dangerous than heroin, methamphetamine, or nicotine. Of course the estimates by people like Prof David J Nutt are flawed and we need more data, but with the current political climate that heavily promotes the abuse of hard drugs getting the budget to properly compare drugs is almost impossible. Alcohol is not just linked to sexual abuse, it's the most popular date rape drug. I regularly abuse hard drugs like alcohol, but everyone who does so should be considered a drug addict.
Interesting hypothesis about men being seen as more productive because of drinking culture. A similar comparative observation I made is with smoking culture in South Korea. Less and less people smoke, but men still smoke more than women, possibly due to peer pressure in military. However, non smoking men are still seen as productive as their smoking peers; and while sometimes smokers are criticized for wasting work hours, men seem to be exempt from this. Gender itself bends all logic behind performance measurement and meritocracy.
Does a woman who willing joins in the drinking and actually enjoys or initiates sexual interaction with coworkers suffer any negative consequences from being open in that way, I wonder?
God I hated, hated living in a society which couldn't speak its mind. It's full of completely unnecessary interpersonal drama and a shitload of wasted of time and productivity. Living in a low context culture is much more comfortable.
There are sometimes other reasons women need to leave early. Maybe not a coincidence that alcohol consumption being key is also inimical to combining work and pregnancy/breastfeeding/motherhood. And can’t be a drunk caregiver to small children between work hours.
Have considered that the requirement to drink is a deliberate and self perpetuating form of patriarchal exclusion of women..
Thanks for your fascinating post.
How does the after work drinking culture impact caregiving and housekeeping? I imagine that responsibilities at home fall more often on women, further keeping them from open communication.
This is such a well-written article! The concrete examples plus graphs and visuals were super helpful, too. Great job!
A Kiwi. NZ established its embassy in Beijing in '73. Travel was easy (no blacked out windows), mostly without a 'guide'. I was a teenager and an object of curiosity to many Chinese.
This was a really interesting article
Excellent insightful essay, Alice.