Just a quick comment regarding Hong Kong and filial piety -
My wife is from Hong Kong, I'm Spanish, we have 3 kids. One of the places where our values differ the most is on -let's call it- "family obligations". For me, 'duty' flows downwards, i.e. it's the parents' duty to make sure your children are succesful, educated, happy citizens. For her, it flows upwards, in that children owe their lives to their parents, so they have to pay back the favor by taking care of them. In such an individualistic society like Hong Kong, parents don't affect your life choices, but children need to pay up to 1/3 of their salary to their parents, etc. From this point of view, children schooling and education is an investment in yourself - by setting them up for a good career path, you ensure they will be able to pay more money back to you in the future.
Some context on this comment is the rapid economic development that East Asian societies went through in our parents and their grandparents generation.
In developed countries in the west, it’s relatively easy you to live a good life, while still providing opportunities for your children. Your views on “duty” make sense in this context. It is the responsibility of the parents to ensure that their children are successful and happy, and the children are not obligated to the parents in a similar way. In most East Asian countries, however, to provide opportunities for your children required a far greater degree of sacrifice.
A personal anecdote - I am Korean. My great grandfather went to Japan during the war to make money to send back to my great grandmother, which she used to buy a larger plot of land. My grandparents scraped together the money they made farming to send their children to the city to get an education that was not available in the Korean countryside. My parents immigrated to the USA when they were my age, barely able to speak English, and spent all of their money and focus on educating me and my siblings. I graduated a top college and have an extremely privileged life in NYC. This lifestyle is a direct result of generations of sacrifice to put my generation in this position.
Of course there is a cultural element, but I think any reasonable person in my position would feel gratitude and obligation upwards. The economic realities of the parents and grandparents in East Asian countries are just so far removed from what they were in western countries. I think you would see some of the same attitudes/expectations in the west if you went back a couple generation or so and looked at developing countries at that time
Thank you so much for sharing, that's an amazing story of sacrifice and love.
I definitely see that many East Asian parents struggled so much for their children, but I don't think Western children would react in the same way to the same inputs.
For example, in surveys, East Asian children are more likely to defer to their parents' preferences and want to make their parents proud. Western institutions didn't mandate filial piety either, whereas China does. Materially, Western pensions are also more generous, so parents seldom rely on their children for income.
Let me give a personal example. My mother is a single mother who became a partner at a law firm, specialising in M&A. This is an extremely tough, time-intensive sector, with clients constantly calling up, demanding action. She sacrificed everything for my brother and me. She sent us to an expensive private school. So I have always felt very strong loyalty to her, and would do anything to help her. But in England's more individualistic society, I would react strongly if she sought to impose (or even voice) her preferences about what I should do in my life.
My spouse is from mainland China (also Cantonese speaking) and in her culture while their is an expectation of insurance for parents (i.e. when parent is I'll and/or cannot take care of themselves) and helping them live a comfortable life there is no expectations for salary and/or income sharing as such (and definitely not 1/3 of salary).
From an Indian POV, I completely concur. Caste continues to persist and, in my opinion, and many others, doesn't respect civil and personal liberties, often reducing them to choices exercised by the parents of the children.
What does this add up to?
1. Many marriages between business families also happen within religious and caste lines, so it's not a case of marrying for money but rather keeping the money circulating between these dynasties
2. Since the male person would not just be the head of the family but also the patriarch of the family business, many men lost out on chances to expand their employability; stories abound within my friend circle where the person would state, I am going abroad to get an MBA but in the end, I will probably grow the family business whether I like it or not
3. Finally, in my two years working in Bangalore and now living in Australia, I have come across numerous stories where the person would state that they love their lives in the US or Australia or X country but would come back home to marry because that is what feels right; now the logic aside, one thing that always got to me was why did they not want to marry an Indian girl who grew up in those countries?
These are still personal observations and I haven't gotten into the weeds to see if they are supported by the numbers
Something that hadn't occurred to me before: could endogamy in the Muslim world be related to their restrictions on alcohol? They might not see value in boozy nights out if they don't value building up social ties with non-kin to similar degrees.
Interesting observation. Reminds me of Joe Henrich's argument in his book, that the reduced kin selection due to changes in religion leading to less cousin marriage spurred economic growth and led to more individualistic and WEIRD cultures.
These are fascinating essays. I hope that they are not merely taken from your book, and that instead the process of writing them helps your book-writing in some way. As someone who is increasingly skeptical about the book format, I would like to see you experiment with training a chatbot on your writing, resulting in something like Tyler Cowen's GOAT project. The result would be something more interactive than a book. https://arnoldkling.substack.com/p/links-to-consider-1029
Just a quick comment regarding Hong Kong and filial piety -
My wife is from Hong Kong, I'm Spanish, we have 3 kids. One of the places where our values differ the most is on -let's call it- "family obligations". For me, 'duty' flows downwards, i.e. it's the parents' duty to make sure your children are succesful, educated, happy citizens. For her, it flows upwards, in that children owe their lives to their parents, so they have to pay back the favor by taking care of them. In such an individualistic society like Hong Kong, parents don't affect your life choices, but children need to pay up to 1/3 of their salary to their parents, etc. From this point of view, children schooling and education is an investment in yourself - by setting them up for a good career path, you ensure they will be able to pay more money back to you in the future.
Some context on this comment is the rapid economic development that East Asian societies went through in our parents and their grandparents generation.
In developed countries in the west, it’s relatively easy you to live a good life, while still providing opportunities for your children. Your views on “duty” make sense in this context. It is the responsibility of the parents to ensure that their children are successful and happy, and the children are not obligated to the parents in a similar way. In most East Asian countries, however, to provide opportunities for your children required a far greater degree of sacrifice.
A personal anecdote - I am Korean. My great grandfather went to Japan during the war to make money to send back to my great grandmother, which she used to buy a larger plot of land. My grandparents scraped together the money they made farming to send their children to the city to get an education that was not available in the Korean countryside. My parents immigrated to the USA when they were my age, barely able to speak English, and spent all of their money and focus on educating me and my siblings. I graduated a top college and have an extremely privileged life in NYC. This lifestyle is a direct result of generations of sacrifice to put my generation in this position.
Of course there is a cultural element, but I think any reasonable person in my position would feel gratitude and obligation upwards. The economic realities of the parents and grandparents in East Asian countries are just so far removed from what they were in western countries. I think you would see some of the same attitudes/expectations in the west if you went back a couple generation or so and looked at developing countries at that time
Thank you so much for sharing, that's an amazing story of sacrifice and love.
I definitely see that many East Asian parents struggled so much for their children, but I don't think Western children would react in the same way to the same inputs.
For example, in surveys, East Asian children are more likely to defer to their parents' preferences and want to make their parents proud. Western institutions didn't mandate filial piety either, whereas China does. Materially, Western pensions are also more generous, so parents seldom rely on their children for income.
Let me give a personal example. My mother is a single mother who became a partner at a law firm, specialising in M&A. This is an extremely tough, time-intensive sector, with clients constantly calling up, demanding action. She sacrificed everything for my brother and me. She sent us to an expensive private school. So I have always felt very strong loyalty to her, and would do anything to help her. But in England's more individualistic society, I would react strongly if she sought to impose (or even voice) her preferences about what I should do in my life.
My spouse is from mainland China (also Cantonese speaking) and in her culture while their is an expectation of insurance for parents (i.e. when parent is I'll and/or cannot take care of themselves) and helping them live a comfortable life there is no expectations for salary and/or income sharing as such (and definitely not 1/3 of salary).
From an Indian POV, I completely concur. Caste continues to persist and, in my opinion, and many others, doesn't respect civil and personal liberties, often reducing them to choices exercised by the parents of the children.
What does this add up to?
1. Many marriages between business families also happen within religious and caste lines, so it's not a case of marrying for money but rather keeping the money circulating between these dynasties
2. Since the male person would not just be the head of the family but also the patriarch of the family business, many men lost out on chances to expand their employability; stories abound within my friend circle where the person would state, I am going abroad to get an MBA but in the end, I will probably grow the family business whether I like it or not
3. Finally, in my two years working in Bangalore and now living in Australia, I have come across numerous stories where the person would state that they love their lives in the US or Australia or X country but would come back home to marry because that is what feels right; now the logic aside, one thing that always got to me was why did they not want to marry an Indian girl who grew up in those countries?
These are still personal observations and I haven't gotten into the weeds to see if they are supported by the numbers
Something that hadn't occurred to me before: could endogamy in the Muslim world be related to their restrictions on alcohol? They might not see value in boozy nights out if they don't value building up social ties with non-kin to similar degrees.
Interesting observation. Reminds me of Joe Henrich's argument in his book, that the reduced kin selection due to changes in religion leading to less cousin marriage spurred economic growth and led to more individualistic and WEIRD cultures.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_WEIRDest_People_in_the_World
These are fascinating essays. I hope that they are not merely taken from your book, and that instead the process of writing them helps your book-writing in some way. As someone who is increasingly skeptical about the book format, I would like to see you experiment with training a chatbot on your writing, resulting in something like Tyler Cowen's GOAT project. The result would be something more interactive than a book. https://arnoldkling.substack.com/p/links-to-consider-1029
That's a fun idea!