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Md Nadim Ahmed's avatar

I always found the idea that rice farming societies are more conformist very strange. Bengal was also a majority rice farming society but we have the stereotype of a Bengali being very prone to political violence. Perhaps that's specific to the urban culture of Dhaka and Kolkata.

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Raymond Tseng's avatar

As an East Asian, I've thought a lot about this in general. There are some problems I have with the hypotheses. I know people love the Talhelm story because it feeds that puzzle brain, simple, mechanistic story... part of our economics/stat brain dominance.

There are massive public works projects of a sort you don't see in the West, especially related to water: Grand Canal and Angkor Wat. But, I forget when it was but the proliferation of modern rice variants that need to be flooded or in standing water are a newer phenomenon. I don't have the dating offhand, but I would guess 800-1000 CE. Prior to that, the rice variants needed less coordination for water.

But, if you use say Nisbett's historical narrative of 200 BCE China/Greece from Geography of Thought... much of the precursors of collectivism/individualism are already in place. The debate bro culture of Greece vs. the pragmatism of Confucius. A culture rooted in individuality, logic, and deduction v. ying/yang- two things true at once. Good empirical example of this is the per capita lawyers in the west v. east. Many Chinese like to mention that there is not a word/idiom in Chinese for philosophy.

Here's something of interest and I don't know how it would fit. I am not a person heavily invested in the genetics/hbd debate, but Razib Khan has written a couple of Ancient DNA substacks/podcasts and I'm going to paraphrase. There is no genetic continuity between most modern Europeans, say Germans with the peoples' of those same geographic areas 4000+ years ago. I think he portrays the Yamnaya culture (steppe nomads) as wiping out all the former farmers in Europe. East Asians were semi genetically isolated due to geographical constraints and climatic events and are still directly descended from people in those geographic areas 35k - 45k+ years ago. It's been more of a continuous society/culture for a longer time period.

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